| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Help! Should I confirm this offer? 投稿者: fionainrome
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fionainrome
イタリア
Local time: 04:43
イタリア語 から 英語
TOPIC STARTER | confirmation | Apr 29, 2008 |
The company is based in the Us and I'm based in Italy. I don't know if this stilll makes 2.80 Euros (not dollars) per minute of translation for subtitling a terrible rate.
I said I work "for" Tv as I know I cannot get specific in this forum as it wouldn't take any Italian long to understand what I'm talking about. Anyway, just sent them an email asking them to please confirm their rates (net, at least on their part, then I'll be doing the paying of my own taxes here, but I know how much t... See more The company is based in the Us and I'm based in Italy. I don't know if this stilll makes 2.80 Euros (not dollars) per minute of translation for subtitling a terrible rate.
I said I work "for" Tv as I know I cannot get specific in this forum as it wouldn't take any Italian long to understand what I'm talking about. Anyway, just sent them an email asking them to please confirm their rates (net, at least on their part, then I'll be doing the paying of my own taxes here, but I know how much that is) and that this is translation only, not transcription etc.
To say the truth I asked them before, but they were kind of putting pressure on me to accept the job and then get the details from my coordinator.
However, as one of you said, there is no binding contract here. If it turns out there's been a "misunderstanding" I can always pull out, right? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sylvano
Local time: 04:43
英語 から フランス語
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I'm talking about translation only, either for dubbing or subtitling.
So was I (for a self pre-proofed job you can send to your client).
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
But I'm considered a slow and expensive guy here. Some colleagues brag about doing that in less than half the time, and they charge between 1/3 and half of what I do. But I never had the nerve (nor the ability) to step down to their quality level.
Well, shame on them (and their clients).
| | | | | script first | Apr 29, 2008 |
bramasole wrote:
You should ask the client whether this show has a script (text) you can work with or you have to work with the video only and then you have to decide whether you can really do this text. 10 days for a 150 minute show is more than very reasonable, so maybe it worth giving up some other job and accept this one since you say you really need this job even if the pay is not great. In bocca al lupo!:)
I agree with bramasole. I have a long experience in subtitling. I have done alot of subtitling for materials that have no scripts. It is so ugly, taking into consideration that some of which were war documentaries. The music, the sound effects that affect the scenario. So please be aware of that, and usually the payment for non script materials are higher than the ones with scripts. Good Luck
| | | | Allesklar 
オーストラリア
Local time: 12:13
英語 から ドイツ語
+ ...
fionainrome wrote:
However, as one of you said, there is no binding contract here. If it turns out there's been a "misunderstanding" I can always pull out, right?
As long as you have a record of the email conversation in which you have clearly stated what you agree to and what you don't, then you are covered.
But even if a translator agrees to do a job and then realises he or she has misunderstood or underestimated something, there is always a way out. It probably won't make you popular with the client, but making mistakes is part of a human learning curve. Obviously, if that happens you have to deal with it professionally and give the client as much notice as possible to change their arrangements, but trying to do something that is beyond your ability will just make it worse and would be neither in your interest nor in theirs.
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| A terrible rate? | May 2, 2008 |
fionainrome wrote:
The company is based in the Us and I'm based in Italy. I don't know if this stilll makes 2.80 Euros (not dollars) per minute of translation for subtitling a terrible rate.
Well, I must say I am impressed by José's speed for translating subtitles, I am much (much!) slower, even after 10 years... So I agree with Sylvano's remark - maybe it's our language combination that makes things slower, I don't know... Anyway, I just wished I was as fast as you, José - I'd be rich by now  Maybe in 10 year's time!
Back to Fiona's comment, I would translate about 20 to 30 minutes of subtitles per day (translation ONLY, no creation of spotting list). Quick math: 2.8 euros x 30 minutes = 84 euros - taxes/health insurance/pension scheme/expenses/etc. = about 40 euros for a full day of work... The minimum wage in France is now about 9 euros per hour = 72 euros for 8 hours' work... I know you need the job and the money Fiona, but don't you think you could earn the same (more) doing something easier?
To me, this is a terrible rate, but maybe again, it's just us French translators and the situation is different in other countries.
| | | | | Valuable trade secrets revealed!!! | May 2, 2008 |
Thierry Renon wrote: Well, I must say I am impressed by José's speed for translating subtitles, I am much (much!) slower, even after 10 years... So I agree with Sylvano's remark - maybe it's our language combination that makes things slower, I don't know... Anyway, I just wished I was as fast as you, José - I'd be rich by now Maybe in 10 year's time!
I don't know how you guys do it. I once saw a colleague doing it with a standard VHS player, too much back-and-forthing for my taste.
I started translating video for dubbing in 1987. Saw my first (and still) client doing it. He transferred the audio to a small handheld cassette player, and worked on the audio only. But he has a much larger personal memory "buffer" than mine - he could listen to long stretches and then go pounding like hell on the keyboard. For me, immediate-action play/pause were essential, something a regular cassette player can't do. A VHS editing suite video player would do, but it was waaay too expensive then. So I started out with a Philips open-reel tape recorder. As it worked well, later I moved to a bulkier Akai unit, which I still have, in perfect working condition. Sometime later I got a huuge (35 kg = 77 lb) three-motor Akai with electric control. These two served me well for 15+ years, to translate some 500 films.
Then I found a (free) Australian software named Express Scribe. It took me a week to definitely retire the tape recorders. I have all the dictaphone functions in my computer, controlled through the [F]-keys.
During all these years I translated for lip-sync dubbing with really outstanding quality, so dubbing directors told me. In 2004, one of my clients needed some technical videos translated PT-to-EN for subtitling, and told me I was his only option. Though it's a wholly different technique using the same equipment, I put some effort to learn, and quickly mastered the technique. Later I discovered that with the advent of digital video I'd just need some additional software to be able to spot and burn my subs. And finally I learned to author DVDs, more recently some highly interactive and intricated ones.
But the point is how do I translate so fast? Honestly, I think it's quite slow, but it seems that most colleagues that offer some quality are even slower.
I used to watch the video while transfering the audio from VHS to reel tape. Now software extracts it from DVD to WAV in a few secs. Also, if the sound is not great, I remove noise, normalize the volume, get it at its best with other software. Nevertheless, I watch the video before I start translating. Then I put on earphones - not speakers - and listen to a snippet, translate it, listen to another... and so on. If I don't understand anything with, say, 2-3 attempts, I put a '????' and proceed right on.
[I'll never forget a lesson learned from spending almost 20 minutes trying to figure out what was something that sounded to me like "Porca rotta!". No, it was not Italian, but Cockney English. Later I found out it was "Full or quarter?"]
Of course, the translation technique is different for subs and dubs, so let's split them here.
For dubbing, I'm terrible in recognizing voices, even over the phone. If it's a one-man, one-woman thing, it's easy. I assign the lines as much as I can, but don't care too much about it, as I'll check them with the seldom provided script, by watching the video later, or both. My major concern is the metrics. As I take one small snippet at a time, it cannot become a large chunk in translation. If the whole phrase has to be rebuilt (e.g. when "customer needs" in EN becomes "necessidades do cliente" in PT), I'll take some 2-4 snippets together, but this doesn't happen all the time. Later I'll watch the video again with my translated script to do several things at once:
- check the "rhythm", if mouth movements will roughly match the translation
- assign lines to roles
- complete the ????s
- translate any charts or titles that will require subtitles or narration
- spot and correct typos or grammar errors
This is done in Microsoft Word using half the monitor, the video playing on the other half.
For subtitling, my standard is 2 lines x 32 chars. So I use Windows Notepad, set it to break lines, and adjust the window width to my first line, which is:
12345678901234567890123456789012|12345678901234567890123456789012
the [|] is the line-break character. So I'll know when I have gone overboard.
Like before, I go listening one snippet after the other, and translating the subs, arranging breaks where I see them suitable.
If all the client wants is the subtitle text, I'll' spell-check and proofread it. If I'm doing the whole job, I'll leave that for the time-spotting stage, where any flaw becomes more noticeable.
So my 1:6 ratio is for the translating stage only. Those of you who say it takes much, much longer, might be including other operations, not working from audio alone, or using a playback system that doesn't offer immediate and accurate play/pause. I think this last item is the most important of all; if you waste time trying to locate youself most of the time, productivity will suffer.
Hope this helps.
Final note: I've never been to a formal training course on video translation. Maybe these techniques are so personal that nobody else would be able to use them. Maybe they are conceptually wrong according to scholars. I do get excellent results, but I cannot guarantee anyone will succeed with these methods.
| | | | fionainrome
イタリア
Local time: 04:43
イタリア語 から 英語
TOPIC STARTER | minutes-rates-eternal debates | May 2, 2008 |
There is no way it would take me one day to do 30 minutes of translation. I would do about 70 in one day, if I worked 8 hours, let's say. I mean ONLY translation of already formatted text (and then of course I have to watch the film to check everything is ok). The difference is that the stuff I translate is nearly always pretty basic and not "spoken" much (we're talking soap operas-long pauses etc). After doing the same silly soaps for a year, believe me, you can do it with your eyes closed. You... See more There is no way it would take me one day to do 30 minutes of translation. I would do about 70 in one day, if I worked 8 hours, let's say. I mean ONLY translation of already formatted text (and then of course I have to watch the film to check everything is ok). The difference is that the stuff I translate is nearly always pretty basic and not "spoken" much (we're talking soap operas-long pauses etc). After doing the same silly soaps for a year, believe me, you can do it with your eyes closed. You basically know what they're going to say! Of course, an art documentary for instance would take me much, much longer. So I don't know what your regular kind of work is (I mean the boy from France. I suppose it's not boring soaps
I can't remember how much José said he could do, I think he meant transcription and spotting included. I could not do that in two days, I'd go mad. 100 minutes of that usually takes me about 5-6 days (without the spotting and done on a Word.doc file).
About the rates, what can I say? I am just hoping, praying, keeping my fingers crossed that I'll get work from a couple of companies that pay 4-5 euros per minute and then I'd be able to cope (my father has kindly offered to pay for my taxes for my first year as a registered for Vat-woman..... how pathetic is that, but I had to accept because there is no way I can survive in Rome on what I earn!)
If I don't get any better paid work, then I'll just UN-register at the end of the year and leave a field I actually really, really love. But the other BIG question is...will I find another job? I have a degree with the highest marks and still I've got nothing but teaching and giving tours in the past years. This is Italy for you and I'll bet you anyone out there who lives here will sadly confirm this.
Any advice out there on how to get better rates?
Thanks to you all ▲ Collapse
| | | | Sylvano
Local time: 04:43
英語 から フランス語
| You won't believe this | May 3, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
I don't know how you guys do it. I once saw a colleague doing it with a standard VHS player, too much back-and-forthing for my taste.
Actually, I should work even quicker than you do, since I'm using a specific software for subtitling, which enables me to do the whole process (cueing/translating) direct from video (with a frame by frame precision). Reasons for my slow pace (or your fast one) must be found somewhere else, I guess. Mind you, what follows is not judging the way you work or boasting about the way I do (as we have our share of problems and questionable practices). And maybe you see things as we do in France, and work the way I do... only faster.
First, I don't know about you, but I'm mainly translating fiction, which (when well written or even worse, badly), as you know, may be really harder to render : puns, slang, songs, lingos, etc.
Then I had a classic course in college for audiovisual translation, where I was taught 'canonical' subtitling : shot rules, 12 cps and so on. I don't know about the standards in your country, but this is still widely followed on the French market.
Then I don't know about your target audience and clients, but ours in France, can be really demanding (and I'm being polite here). Not because we're such a smart bunch of people, but because watching subtitled programs is the habit of restricted (and demanding) groups : movie buffs, hardcore series fans, language lovers... It's not really a democratic technique for a wide audience (as the French are known for sucking at foreign languages). Dubbing is the norm on TV and in theatres.
Culturally, we French also have this silly auteur thing, which easily puts fiction on a pedestal and makes its translation something of an art. As a translator for subtitles, I am (seriously) considered and called an 'auteur' in my country.
Well, I guess there would be other cultural (or even economic/industrial) reasons to explain our difference.
[Edited at 2008-05-03 09:07]
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fionainrome wrote:
About the rates, what can I say? I am just hoping, praying, keeping my fingers crossed that I'll get work from a couple of companies that pay 4-5 euros per minute and then I'd be able to cope
Any advice out there on how to get better rates?
I must say I am impressed by your speed (but it's true my work is probably closer to Sylvano's and more time-consuming). If I had your speed, my yearly income would be something like 230.000 euros a year, I could retire in 5 years!
Fiona, you say something that seems contradictory to me: you won't be able to carry on at these rates, but you still accept them, which is like a vicious circle.
Any advice on how to get better rates?
Try finding clients in other EU countries (especially the UK, France, the Netherlands, Switzerland and Ireland). You know, your client in the US might be paying you peanuts, but they are selling your work for a price. I used to work for a dubbing/audiovisual company in London, and I went to Mipcom in Cannes once a year, so I know a thing or two about worldwide rates in the industry! It's not like all Italian translators live in India where 200 euros is a lot of money.
Sorry again if I sound "judgemental" - I know every situation is different (and if you find you make OK money out of a job, good for you), just trying to give you different hints!
By the way, my avatar may look like a boy but I am actually 35 years old! And I have a beard now! I guess I should change it to an older-looking drawing!
| | | | | Getting things straight | May 7, 2008 |
Sylvano wrote:
Actually, I should work even quicker than you do, since I'm using a specific software for subtitling, which enables me to do the whole process (cueing/translating) direct from video (with a frame by frame precision). Reasons for my slow pace (or your fast one) must be found somewhere else, I guess.
Maybe not. My "personal" method - as I explained it - involves concentrating totally on the audio. The images, viz. the video, might be a distraction. The principle I used for it is that the spectator will actually see the images, 99% of which don't need translation.
Keep in mind that I began translating for dubbing, and did it for 17 years before dipping my toes in translation for subtitling. So my original stance was of being a blind interpreter by the spectator's side. They want that sync-ed, dramatized? That's just an add-on requirement.
I kept that m.o. when I went into translation for subtitling. That's the reason I charge the exact same rate per minute for either. Some people charge much more for dubbing than for subtitling. But I always heard of people who were much faster than me, so I tried to improve speed. One used to boast that she could do two 90-min films in one day's work. A client of hers told me that she actually did one and outsourced the other with someone equally fast, but that is still too much.
Mind you, what follows is not judging the way you work or boasting about the way I do (as we have our share of problems and questionable practices). And maybe you see things as we do in France, and work the way I do... only faster.
First, I don't know about you, but I'm mainly translating fiction, which (when well written or even worse, badly), as you know, may be really harder to render : puns, slang, songs, lingos, etc.
I think I've translated only one or two dozen full-feature films. Most of my video work is about corporate video: institutional, training, product launch, etc. It has its own share of idiosyncrasies as well, crazy acronyms, mnemonics, slogans, and mottos.
It suddenly dawned upon me that in longer films, 90+ minutes, speed might taper off as the translator gets tired, so the average is lower.
Then I don't know about your target audience and clients, but ours in France, can be really demanding (and I'm being polite here). Not because we're such a smart bunch of people, but because watching subtitled programs is the habit of restricted (and demanding) groups : movie buffs, hardcore series fans, language lovers... It's not really a democratic technique for a wide audience (as the French are known for sucking at foreign languages). Dubbing is the norm on TV and in theatres.
We have several audiences. I tend to cater to the most demanding one: corporations. So I'm an expensive one, though cheaper than some guys who translate extremely specialized medical or other scientific stuff. There are video translators for 1/3 of my rates, but they are either sooo bad, or they are good, but they don't have time to use all their skill, so their output often becomes the laughing stock of bilingual spectators.
A local friend and outsourcer had me burn the subtitles for a corporate DVD translated by a "cheaper" translator (2/3 of my rate). I did it today for the fourth time. Every time the end-client had more changes and corrections to be done. When I do it directly, there are usually 2-4 modifications from the first to the second - and last - burn.
Well, I guess there would be other cultural (or even economic/industrial) reasons to explain our difference.
I think it's most likely the fact that I'm not counting my pre- and post- work, but strictly translation time. As these vary from one case to another, for instance:
- original in VHS, output required on DVD - capture time while watching
- original in misc. non-AVI video format
- VOB to AVI conversion for complete subtitling
- spotting (when I do it, I proofread simultaneously)
- checking dubbing script while watching and assigning lines to roles
... and many others, our difference might be there.
| | | | fionainrome
イタリア
Local time: 04:43
イタリア語 から 英語
TOPIC STARTER | French boy/man with beard | May 7, 2008 |
just joking! Anyway, the reason I accept these rates is because I had to fight (yeah, FIGHT) for two months to get one of the main companies I work for to raise my rates as I was forced to get registered for vat (no contract etc even if I go to their office to work 2 to 4 times a week) and now I have to pay 40% taxes...which means if earn 1000 euros I have to five them 400! Isn't that fair?).
I have an excellent tax advisor and he was appalled by all this, saying they wanted me to... See more just joking! Anyway, the reason I accept these rates is because I had to fight (yeah, FIGHT) for two months to get one of the main companies I work for to raise my rates as I was forced to get registered for vat (no contract etc even if I go to their office to work 2 to 4 times a week) and now I have to pay 40% taxes...which means if earn 1000 euros I have to five them 400! Isn't that fair?).
I have an excellent tax advisor and he was appalled by all this, saying they wanted me to get registered for vat because in Italy you have to pay all your taxes yourself if you get registered for vat (leave out 4% INPS, pension... will I ever get that back when I'm 60 or 64 as the Beatles say?)
What can I say? I accept these rates because I want and need my independence and if I ask for more it's usually a straight forward NO or a battle (a long-lasting one too). Clearly there are people out there who are prepared to accept really, really low rates.
Get work with the UK? I'm trying! But what about France, Sweden etc..? My French is not so good and I don't think they need someone who translates from En to It or vice versa.
One last question to you all, do you think that if the job is badly paid but you need to work you should give lower quality work? I have always given my very, very best... (I have a degree in literature at one of Italy's best universities with top marks) but sometimes I wonder…
Plus, I wanted and still want to be a fiction writer… BIG, BIG sigh ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Price vs. quality | May 8, 2008 |
fionainrome wrote:
One last question to you all, do you think that if the job is badly paid but you need to work you should give lower quality work? I have always given my very, very best...
Real pros never compromise on quality, they simply don't know how to do sloppy work. Of course, they may be limited by equipment, but that's not the case for translation, which is personal work. To illustrate, a professional photographer, if deprived of his Hasselblad or Nikon, and using a disposable camera found at a convenience store, will not take blurry, poorly exposed photos cropping people's heads and/or feet.
The films to be translated and subbed come in all quality shades. It's a waste of resources to hire a good translator for a really bad film, and vice-versa. So you should know your targeted level and aim to work there most of the time. The pay should vary accordingly.
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Sylvano
Local time: 04:43
英語 から フランス語
| French boy speaking | May 8, 2008 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
Real pros never compromise on quality, they simply don't know how to do sloppy work.
I can only agree with that. And that's why clients are so happy when they manage to give poor rates...
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