| Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4 5] > | Market for German-English legal translations Thread poster: Robert Hess
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Hi everyone,
I just joined Proz, but have been a translator for the past 25 years. Specifically, I translate German legal documents into English, and vice versa.
In the past 6 months my workflow has gradually dried up, with the last two months being the worst. Several long-time colleagues in the same line of business are experiencing the same exact thing.
My questions are:
1) Are my colleagues and I the only ones, or are others having the sam... See more Hi everyone,
I just joined Proz, but have been a translator for the past 25 years. Specifically, I translate German legal documents into English, and vice versa.
In the past 6 months my workflow has gradually dried up, with the last two months being the worst. Several long-time colleagues in the same line of business are experiencing the same exact thing.
My questions are:
1) Are my colleagues and I the only ones, or are others having the same experience?
2) If it is a general trend, what do you think are the likely causes? DeepL? Ukraine war and the associated economic fallout? A combination of bot?
I am especially curious about what other German-English legal translators are experiencing. But anyone's feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks a lot!
Robert ▲ Collapse
| | | | | You're not the only one | Nov 18, 2022 |
I translate business, marketing, HR and legal texts from English to German, and the last 3 years have become increasingly difficult for me, too. I think it's not because of Covid but because of DeepL and MTPE. A very huge agency which has given me lots of jobs in former years told me they now have more than 90% MTPE jobs (which I don't like).
I now try to widen my portfolio of services (proofreading, copywriting, transcreation, website localization) but I'm not sure of the success of thi... See more I translate business, marketing, HR and legal texts from English to German, and the last 3 years have become increasingly difficult for me, too. I think it's not because of Covid but because of DeepL and MTPE. A very huge agency which has given me lots of jobs in former years told me they now have more than 90% MTPE jobs (which I don't like).
I now try to widen my portfolio of services (proofreading, copywriting, transcreation, website localization) but I'm not sure of the success of this strategy yet because here I'm a newbie again...
Good luck! ▲ Collapse
| | | | David GAY
Local time: 16:26
English to French
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Dr. Tilmann Kleinau wrote:
I think it's not because of Covid but because of DeepL and MTPE. A very huge agency which has given me lots of jobs in former years told me they now have more than 90% MTPE jobs (which I don't like).
Worse than DeepL, they probably have their own MT engine which leverages millions of previously translated texts, so its quality is probably much better than DeepL s output
[Edited at 2022-11-18 14:34 GMT]
| | | | Angus Stewart 
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:26
Member (2011)
French to English
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| Same experience here | Nov 18, 2022 |
I am a legal translator in the French and Italian into English language pairs and I am experiencing the same phenomenon. The market has been much slower than normal since the Spring and like you I have found the past two months particularly bad.
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| Thanks for your feedback | Nov 18, 2022 |
Looks like we are in the same boat.
This raises the question whether there are ANY translators left who are not, or very little, affected by DeepL. I don't see how I could make a living doing MTPE work, even if I wanted to.
For background: All of my (former) clients are German law firms or companies. I haven't worked for agencies in over 20 years. It's been a very good, mostly steady 20 years. Even Covid in 2020/2021 wasn't too bad.
I am now in the process... See more Looks like we are in the same boat.
This raises the question whether there are ANY translators left who are not, or very little, affected by DeepL. I don't see how I could make a living doing MTPE work, even if I wanted to.
For background: All of my (former) clients are German law firms or companies. I haven't worked for agencies in over 20 years. It's been a very good, mostly steady 20 years. Even Covid in 2020/2021 wasn't too bad.
I am now in the process of starting a new, college consulting business. If nothing else, it gives me something to do with my time. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | | | Good article | Nov 19, 2022 |
Thanks for sharing the article. Not really much new in there, except that DeepL is now worth almost a billion dollars. That was to be expected. Many, and perhaps even most, texts CAN be translated quite well with DeepL, requiring only minor editing. But legal texts, not so much. There is just too much interpretation involved. And clients have basically confirmed that.
At the end of the day, I guess, price is simply more important than quality. I think of it as the "MacDonald-ficatio... See more Thanks for sharing the article. Not really much new in there, except that DeepL is now worth almost a billion dollars. That was to be expected. Many, and perhaps even most, texts CAN be translated quite well with DeepL, requiring only minor editing. But legal texts, not so much. There is just too much interpretation involved. And clients have basically confirmed that.
At the end of the day, I guess, price is simply more important than quality. I think of it as the "MacDonald-fication" of the translation industry. The product sucks, but it's quick and cheap.
Still, I would be interested in hearing some more opinions about this topic. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 10:26
Member (2011)
English to German
Hi Matthias,
I clicked on your link and Spiegel.de says: You also consent to your data being processed by providers in third countries and the United States. There is a risk that U.S. providers may be required to share their data with the authorities there. As such, the U.S. is assessed as a country with an insufficient level of data protection according to EU standards (for third country consent).
Is there another possibility to easily read this Spiegel article without having to accept all advertising and analysis trackers?
Best,
Marina
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| Foreign and local authorities | Nov 19, 2022 |
Marina Monica Steinbach wrote:
Hi Matthias,
I clicked on your link and Spiegel.de says: You also consent to your data being processed by providers in third countries and the United States. There is a risk that U.S. providers may be required to share their data with the authorities there. As such, the U.S. is assessed as a country with an insufficient level of data protection according to EU standards (for third country consent).
Is there another possibility to easily read this Spiegel article without having to accept all advertising and analysis trackers?
Best,
Marina
Hi Marina,
I'm afraid there's no other possibility than accepting the quoted declaration of consent. A lot of those consent declaration forms today contain the given text, added by the note that the tracking data may be processed by foreign authorities. I don't know whether it would be a good idea for me to quote the article here on proz although it is freely available in the internet.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:26
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Occam's razor: recession, not paradigm change | Nov 19, 2022 |
It's usually a good idea to choose the simplest explanation or the one requiring the fewest supporting arguments. One doesn't need to invoke the spectre of MT to explain a sudden slowdown in business. (Indeed, such a synchronised effect would imply that all clients in DE-EN suddenly gained access to similarly competent MT, evaluated it, then deployed it, all at the same time. Unlikely, to say the least.)
Below you will see a screensh... See more It's usually a good idea to choose the simplest explanation or the one requiring the fewest supporting arguments. One doesn't need to invoke the spectre of MT to explain a sudden slowdown in business. (Indeed, such a synchronised effect would imply that all clients in DE-EN suddenly gained access to similarly competent MT, evaluated it, then deployed it, all at the same time. Unlikely, to say the least.)
Below you will see a screenshot of the GfK Consumer Climate Indicator in Germany. It's at the lowest level - by a considerable margin - for more than 20 years. Other indicators, such as the manufacturing PMI, are also at levels not seen (except during covid, when output was constrained by lockdowns) since the GFC in 2008 or the euro crisis in 2012.
These data are telling us that Germany consumers and companies, like those of many other countries, are under the severest economic stress they have experienced for a decade or two. Would you really expect this not to have a chilling effect on economic activity, including translation services?
We are likely approaching, or already in, a recession that will affect most of the globe. Winter is coming.
Cheerfully yours,
Dan
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| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:26
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Deepl - but only up to a point | Nov 19, 2022 |
Deepl is responsible for a noticeable falling off of translating work, but only of a particular kind.
As we all know, ever since the beginning of time all translators have begun by quickly writing down a very rough first draft.
In this first draft, accuracy isn't important; you just want something on the page that's quick and that you can then work on seriously.
With today's technology, Deepl can be useful because it can produce that first draft. Deepl c... See more Deepl is responsible for a noticeable falling off of translating work, but only of a particular kind.
As we all know, ever since the beginning of time all translators have begun by quickly writing down a very rough first draft.
In this first draft, accuracy isn't important; you just want something on the page that's quick and that you can then work on seriously.
With today's technology, Deepl can be useful because it can produce that first draft. Deepl can make Step 1 of any translation much quicker. Not always, but much of the time.
However Deepl can't do the real work that only begins after that: rewriting, correcting, again and again until the translation is right.
I find it hard to believe that there is any version of Deepl that can be completely relied upon to produce accurate, credible legal texts that can be used as evidence in trials or for other legal purposes, such as contracts.
Perhaps there are many legal texts that are only for internal use or for reference, for which a Deepl translation is considered good enough.
But legally binding contracts or other important legal documents must be properly translated by a human being.
So in a changing market the focus now, so far as I can see, is on better-paid high quality human translations.
It's not clear yet how this will resolve itself, but it's already clear that the day of cheap, semi-skilled amateur translators is coming to an end.
The volume of work is decreasing, but the demand for quality is increasing and with it, a willingness to pay higher rates. But only the best translators will survive.
[Edited at 2022-11-19 09:46 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | What crisis? Like in Brazil? | Nov 19, 2022 |
Companies in Germany are still desperately looking for skilled or even unskilled workers, we have a still decreasing unemployment rate, and yesterday Germany's biggest trade union successfully gained a collective agreement to compensate for the effects of the high inflation. Therefore your statement cannot be true, Dan, sorry to say so. On the other hand, even agencies suffer from the effects DeepL delivers: Last week I phoned a German agency and the owner told me that he/she had to dismiss all ... See more Companies in Germany are still desperately looking for skilled or even unskilled workers, we have a still decreasing unemployment rate, and yesterday Germany's biggest trade union successfully gained a collective agreement to compensate for the effects of the high inflation. Therefore your statement cannot be true, Dan, sorry to say so. On the other hand, even agencies suffer from the effects DeepL delivers: Last week I phoned a German agency and the owner told me that he/she had to dismiss all five permanently employed translators. My contact added, that her/his earlier German end clients are actively being contacted by DeepL to subscribe to the translation packets DeepL offers.
I believe you are lucky that your language combination still isn't affected by Deepl. And yes, Tom, even with DeepL more or less skilled translators are still needed, to check these automatically translated contents for grammatical and legal correctness and to translate documents where even the most intelligent algorithms come to an end. Still, for the tasks being left, like PEMT, post editing or call it what you will, it won't be necessarily translators like you, Dan, or Dr. Kleinau, but the usual 5 cent (or less) performers with their best rates.
[Bearbeitet am 2022-11-19 11:31 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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David GAY
Local time: 16:26
English to French
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| I beg to disagree | Nov 19, 2022 |
Tom in London wrote:
But legally binding contracts or other important legal documents must be properly translated by a human being.
So in a changing market the focus now, so far as I can see, is on better-paid high quality human translations.
It's not clear yet how this will resolve itself, but it's already clear that the day of cheap, semi-skilled amateur translators is coming to an end.
The volume of work is decreasing, but the demand for quality is increasing and with it, a willingness to pay higher rates. But only the best translators will survive.
[Edited at 2022-11-19 09:46 GMT]
in this case only sworn translators would still be needed, the others would disappear. But even sworn translators seem to feel the pinch of MTPE right now. So more than 80 percent of translation market are bound to disappear.I don t see how the best translators could benefit from this phenomenon.Legally binding contracts all contain the following clause The German version of this contract shall prevail.So a human translation is not needed, just perhaps a human reviewer, that s all.
[Edited at 2022-11-19 12:58 GMT]
| | | | David GAY
Local time: 16:26
English to French
+ ...
| market disruption | Nov 19, 2022 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
It's usually a good idea to choose the simplest explanation or the one requiring the fewest supporting arguments. One doesn't need to invoke the spectre of MT to explain a sudden slowdown in business. (Indeed, such a synchronised effect would imply that all clients in DE-EN suddenly gained access to similarly competent MT, evaluated it, then deployed it, all at the same time. Unlikely, to say the least.)
The world s biggest legal translations provider has shifted to MTPE so it s enough to disrupt the market. And the others most probably have. Those which didn t follow suit are bound to disappear.
[Edited at 2022-11-19 17:42 GMT]
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:26
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Let's wait and see | Nov 19, 2022 |
Matthias Brombach wrote:
Companies in Germany are still desperately looking for skilled or even unskilled workers, we have a still decreasing unemployment rate, and yesterday Germany's biggest trade union successfully gained a collective agreement to compensate for the effects of the high inflation. Therefore your statement cannot be true, Dan, sorry to say so.
My statement being that Germany is in recessionary territory? Okay. Well, let's wait and see. Neither the PMI nor the consumer confidence index counts as "hard" data (unlike, say GDP).
I very much hope that I am wrong, that GDP does not decline and that Germany and other countries get through the next 12 months with minimal hardship.
I have set a reminder to look at this thread in 6 months.
Regards,
Dan
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