| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Is there a rule that forbids criticising a poster's command of English? Thread poster: Hans Lenting
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I'm a happy member of the Dutch Facebook groep Vertalerskoffiehoek (Translators' Coffee Corner). One of the rules there is:
Voor velen hier is Nederlands niet hun moedertaal, dus laten we daar ook respect voor hebben. (Het is dan ook niet toegestaan om anderen in een post op taalfouten te wijzen; als je een onbedwingbare drang daartoe hebt, kun je dat in een privébericht doen.)
MT-translated as:
For many here, Dutch is not their mother tongue, so let's respect that too. (It is therefore not permitted to point out language errors to others in a post; if you have an irrepressible urge to do so, you can do so in a private message).
I've seen some very unpleasant attacks at non-native speakers by native speakers of English in the last weeks. I was wondering: Is there already a rule that deals with this?
Since we're obliged to write in English (except from a few forums) and native speakers of English aren't forced to learn our mother languages, I'm hoping for more courtesy, friendliness and tolerance for mistakes against the English language.
A subtly and charming way to correct one's English could be to rephrase a question (statement etc.), using the correct English language.
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Yes, there is rule 2 on mutual respect.
If you find a post or a person offensive, report it and ProZ will deal with it.
You could also try the heavily moderated Facebook group.
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I don’t know if there’s a rule. I have been corrected occasionally both in French and English and corrections are always welcome. I’ve also corrected (helped?) a British colleague who has been living in Portugal for over 20 years but occasionally stumbles across a Portuguese word he doesn’t master entirely (verbs in general. I know Portuguese grammar is difficult…). Some years ago, I was very critic of some Proz members who with the help of Mr. Google Translate thought they could gain ... See more I don’t know if there’s a rule. I have been corrected occasionally both in French and English and corrections are always welcome. I’ve also corrected (helped?) a British colleague who has been living in Portugal for over 20 years but occasionally stumbles across a Portuguese word he doesn’t master entirely (verbs in general. I know Portuguese grammar is difficult…). Some years ago, I was very critic of some Proz members who with the help of Mr. Google Translate thought they could gain points translating every language in the world, but they are long gone…
P.S. By the way, I'm not sure if I should have said "I was very critic" or "I was very critical"...
[Edited at 2021-12-31 10:04 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 12:35
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Only one person. | Dec 31, 2021 |
When it comes to forum posts, I can’t remember any native speaker correcting non-native posts but one person specifically. It seems to be their favorite sport. Nobody takes them seriously, either natives or non-natives.
If they are such a great editor and reviser, wouldn’t they be correcting complex works of literature and serious content on a daily basis for big $$$ instead? Are forum posts their career?
[Edited at 2021-12-31 11:38 GMT]
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 12:35
French to English
I believe there is a rule about not questioning someone's professional ability or something like that. Given that we're translators, our command of language should be included in that surely?
I agree that it's rather bad form to mock people's command of English. Even if we're translators and need to be able to express ourselves well, we don't have to be able to express ourselves perfectly in anything but our target language. And even then, this is just a forum, and I'm not sure that... See more I believe there is a rule about not questioning someone's professional ability or something like that. Given that we're translators, our command of language should be included in that surely?
I agree that it's rather bad form to mock people's command of English. Even if we're translators and need to be able to express ourselves well, we don't have to be able to express ourselves perfectly in anything but our target language. And even then, this is just a forum, and I'm not sure that there are all that many potential clients reading us here.
It can be tedious, or frustrating, or exasperating, as a native speaker, to hear people mangling our language, especially when we take pride in our prose. Tolerance is all-important.
I used to get upset trying to speak my partner's native language, and his family all fall about laughing at my accent. I realise they are not used to hearing foreigners speak their language. I just pointed out that I never make fun of their accent in English, and now only speak in their language when I'm alone with my mother-in-law, who speaks no English and isn't about to start learning since she's in her 90s.
ETA:
Lose/loose: we need to loosen up on that.
Public/pubic: we can discreetly point out the error, with a quiet chuckle.
The only instance in which it should be OK to correct someone's English is if it genuinely leads to a misunderstanding, leading to incorrect advice.
[Edited at 2021-12-31 10:17 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-12-31 10:18 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 12:35
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Yes, there is a rule, but it's not really there | Dec 31, 2021 |
German Dutch Engineering Translation wrote:
I've seen some very unpleasant attacks at non-native speakers by native speakers of English in the last weeks. I was wondering: Is there already a rule that deals with this?
Well, the relevant rule (but it is not enforced) is to stay on topic. And talking about the way a person wrote his post is not really on-topic, unless the person requested such comment. But the current forum moderators don't care about such things. And there is also a rule/principle about being welcoming to newcomers, but that is also not moderated. This turns the ProZ.com forums into a toxic environment where only die-hards remain. We are powerless against those who break the rules (and to matters worse, these people typically don't think of themselves as rule-breakers).
Lingua 5B wrote:
When it comes to forum posts, I can’t remember any native speaker correcting non-native posts but [name]. It seems to be his favorite sport. Nobody takes him seriously, either natives or non-natives. ... Are forum posts his career?
Well, another principle on a forum such as this is not criticizing a fellow-member in his absence. (-: I certainly won't be happy if it were done to me.
As to whether "nobody takes him seriously", well that is true only of those who know him. Unless newcomers (and people who don't read the forums often) know who the usual suspects are, they won't know which replies are intended as friendly, mischievous banter and which posts are truly intended to be as offensive as they sound. The fact that specific people can so consistently break the rules without any repercussions simply points to the disfunctionality of the forum in general.
[Edited at 2021-12-31 10:22 GMT]
| | | | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 12:35
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
I edited my post for the name. But I was not sure how to reply to this thread when it relates to one person only? It honestly does. There are tons of native speakers on the forum and nobody else ever does that in terms of correcting or editing other posts directly. I pointed several times how it was off-topic making discussions stray, but it didn’t help.
According to your theory, the other thread should be closed as it was open to criticize this person’s specific statement in so... See more I edited my post for the name. But I was not sure how to reply to this thread when it relates to one person only? It honestly does. There are tons of native speakers on the forum and nobody else ever does that in terms of correcting or editing other posts directly. I pointed several times how it was off-topic making discussions stray, but it didn’t help.
According to your theory, the other thread should be closed as it was open to criticize this person’s specific statement in some other thread? As you say it’s not allowed to do. Then be consistent with it.
Let’s not make discussions “general” if they relate to one person only.
[Edited at 2021-12-31 10:38 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Mr. Satan (X)
English to Indonesian
| I'm seeing it as a tough love | Dec 31, 2021 |
I'd rather have native speakers point my mistakes and correct them, than never knowing that I'm making mistakes and being ignorant for the rest of my life.
| | | | | A strong case | Dec 31, 2021 |
A while ago, a strong public admonition by an esteemed colleague regarding a hurtful comment of mine on a beginner thread made me rethink my ways. What was my purpose of participating in the first place?
While I agree with Samuel about toxicity creating an environment where only die-hards remain, I don't think a rule (or a strict enforcement of a "do not stray off topic" rule) would have achieved the same.
If there is no rule about commenting on language on a disparagi... See more A while ago, a strong public admonition by an esteemed colleague regarding a hurtful comment of mine on a beginner thread made me rethink my ways. What was my purpose of participating in the first place?
While I agree with Samuel about toxicity creating an environment where only die-hards remain, I don't think a rule (or a strict enforcement of a "do not stray off topic" rule) would have achieved the same.
If there is no rule about commenting on language on a disparaging way, there is, however, a strong case for "courtesy, friendliness and tolerance".
A way to treat such behaviors would be to simply not engage with them.
Or on the contrary, singling them out (but not the individuals behind them, as I believe most people can change, given the chance). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:35
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| So far as I am aware.... | Dec 31, 2021 |
Nobody has criticised a poster's command of English.
| | | | expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 11:35
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Novian Cahyadi wrote:
I'd rather have native speakers point my mistakes and correct them, than never knowing that I'm making mistakes and being ignorant for the rest of my life.
I share the same opinion, but the truth is that there are other ways of correcting non-natives and those ways have to do with courtesy and respect for those speakers.
However, I understand that mistakes made by non-native speakers who don't have a very good command of a language can often shock us.
Wishing everyone a very happy New Year!
[Edited at 2021-12-31 13:11 GMT]
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William Yang
China
Local time: 18:35
Member (2021)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Don't be harsh and critical as translating quality is a redefining process. | Jan 1, 2022 |
For starters esp. those recently embarking on this odyssey always surfacing new challenges, we need encouraging, understanding, even support. Life isn't easy, and those unfit will leave without your harsh words. Market will tell: survival of the fittest. Give your best suggestions when you proofread.
Translating is a process of self-learning, improvement and redefining the quality.
Let's be empathetic.
| | | | Hans Lenting
Netherlands
Member (2006)
German to Dutch
TOPIC STARTER | William Yang
China
Local time: 18:35
Member (2021)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Poking fun at non-native speakers by a play on words is uglier sometimes | Jan 1, 2022 |
German Dutch Engineering Translation wrote:
I've seen some very unpleasant attacks at non-native speakers by native speakers of English in the last weeks. I was wondering: Is there already a rule that deals with this?
Since we're obliged to write in English (except from a few forums) and native speakers of English aren't forced to learn our mother languages, I'm hoping for more courtesy, friendliness and tolerance for mistakes against the English language.
A subtly and charming way to correct one's English could be to rephrase a question (statement etc.), using the correct English language.
Poking fun at non-native speaker by a play on words is uglier sometimes, and distasteful.
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