| Teemakohased leheküljed: [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Mud slinging on Kudoz questions Vestluse postitaja: Berni Armstrong
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Hi all,
It has come to my notice of late that comments in the agree/disagree boxes are becoming less professional and far more personal.
[...personal references removed by site staff...]
The main point is that the agree/disagree column is meant to aid the asker in choosing an answer, it is NOT supposed to turn into a forum for a slanging match between opposing views. Sadly, this has become very common on some language combinations -... See more Hi all,
It has come to my notice of late that comments in the agree/disagree boxes are becoming less professional and far more personal.
[...personal references removed by site staff...]
The main point is that the agree/disagree column is meant to aid the asker in choosing an answer, it is NOT supposed to turn into a forum for a slanging match between opposing views. Sadly, this has become very common on some language combinations - ENG/ENG being one of them.
I know that some people are very unhappy when answers they perceive as \"amateur\", or just plain wrong, appear on Kudoz pages. However I think we should ALL refrain from
letting our frustrations over such issues boil over into insults in the
agree/disagree boxes.
In such cases, it is surely enough to tell the asker that as a \"native\" speaker of the target language in question you feel that the suggested answer is lacking in
authenticity - or some other more neutral phrase. However, we must remember that in the end it will be up to the questioner to gauge the authenticity/correctness of the suggested answer(s).
I would also plead with people to resist the temptation to rise to the bait of
anyone who DOES use insulting comments.
It appears that this is a genuine problem
throughout the Net. The very nature of the medium seems to invite a level of aggression that would not be tolerated in a face to face meeting. I am reminded of the \"car\" analogy. How many mild tempered people
become screaming, vengeful, violent and dangerous maniacs when they get behind a wheel?
I do not know of any obvious answer here, except to say that this is a case
where individuals CAN make a difference by choosing NOT to join a bad tempered row or by choosing to calmly remind the participants in such a row that they are stepping beyond the bounds of netiquette.
I am not talking here about the occasional attempt at a joke or a tongue in cheek comment, but rather about deeply personal comments made about members which should never be said in any public, or even perhaps private, forum.
Anyone any suggestions as to what to do? And do you agree with me that this issue is increasingly becoming one we should deal with as soon as possible?
Berni Armstrong
Cat/Eng Mod.
PS I am not claiming any moral high ground here. I too have occasionaly forgotten the obvious fact that even native speakers cannot know ALL the nuances of a language.
My \"mea culpa\" came about when I made a flippant comment that I lived to regret on a recent question. In that case, a non-native English speaker eventually backed up her assertion that the word \"joint\" was indeed a verb by reference to a dictionary. I had blithely commented that the word was not a verb - without consulting my dictionary!!!
She, good naturedly, pointed out my error and I realised that I had been completely unaware of both senses of the verb she quoted. It was a humbling experience. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Berni Armstrong 
Hispaania
Local time: 16:57
Liige
inglise
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TOPIC STARTER | Let's NOT get personal | Apr 27, 2002 |
Hi Maya & Mike,
I really do NOT want this to turn into a witch-hunt of anyone in particular... \"there are two sides to every argument\"... and all that.
I just want to plead with people to STOP abusing a neutral system by personalising disagreements and mud slinging.
Without mentioning individual personalities, what do YOU think can be done to calm the waters?
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-27 13:56 ... See more Hi Maya & Mike,
I really do NOT want this to turn into a witch-hunt of anyone in particular... \"there are two sides to every argument\"... and all that.
I just want to plead with people to STOP abusing a neutral system by personalising disagreements and mud slinging.
Without mentioning individual personalities, what do YOU think can be done to calm the waters?
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-27 13:56 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Maya Jurt
Šveits
Local time: 16:57
prantsuse - saksa
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| Not getting personal | Apr 27, 2002 |
Bernie, I absolutely agree with you. But what to do when a lot of people are attacked personally (and I mean a lot) and some almost reduced to tears? Disgusted that proZ does not do anything? Noit answering questions anymore for fear of retaliation? I received a lot of emails (mostly from women) telling me that.
And I agree with Mike as well. You and me can laugh if off, Bernie take the serious approach. But can that person learn? He has been warned so many times. This need to denigrat... See more Bernie, I absolutely agree with you. But what to do when a lot of people are attacked personally (and I mean a lot) and some almost reduced to tears? Disgusted that proZ does not do anything? Noit answering questions anymore for fear of retaliation? I received a lot of emails (mostly from women) telling me that.
And I agree with Mike as well. You and me can laugh if off, Bernie take the serious approach. But can that person learn? He has been warned so many times. This need to denigrated is simply stronger than his reason. [... personal reference removed ...]
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| | | | Christine Healy-Rendel (X)
inglise - saksa
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| My 2 cents.... | Apr 27, 2002 |
I second Berni\'s opinion.
We all (and I include myself) should not forget that potential customers can see any mud slinging in the forum. What will they think....?
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| Competition in the translator market place | Apr 27, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-04-27 13:49, Berni wrote:
Hi Maya & Mike,
....
Without mentioning individual personalities, what do YOU think can be done to calm the waters?
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-27 13:56 ]
KudoZ and forum sites are also part of a market place. Unfortunately, a large percentage of us are often told that we have no right to be... See more Quote:
On 2002-04-27 13:49, Berni wrote:
Hi Maya & Mike,
....
Without mentioning individual personalities, what do YOU think can be done to calm the waters?
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-27 13:56 ]
KudoZ and forum sites are also part of a market place. Unfortunately, a large percentage of us are often told that we have no right to be part of this market place. It is right and normal for people (who are. for example, called \"unprofessional interlopers\") to react to it.
I agree with you: It is wrong to be caught up in those \"discussions\". However, it is absolutely right and necessary to ask:
Do these negative labels hurt my business?
Can I market myself here under these conditions? Can I afford to get angry at this kind of activity, which will, in the final analysis, hurt all of us?
I am a member of ProZ, and I do think that restrictions are necessary. Members should not collectively be called unfit to be translators by anyone, simply because they have the right to market themselves under equal conditions.
In most cases \"professionalism\" is the question behind those unpleasant \"fights\". Lets not discuss the qualifications of groups of ProZ members anymore. That will help to achieve civility.
About the hate mail: There is always the blocked senders list.
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| | | | | lets look for solutions | Apr 27, 2002 |
Without taking sides, I have deleted or edited all of the postings in this thread that violate our rules of etiquette.
Instead of using this thread as an opportunity for further denigration, wouldn\'t it be better to brainstorm concrete steps that can be taken--systematically and across the board--to reduce the incidence of negativity in KudoZ ?
That clients can see the exchanges is a good point--perhaps we should make certain exchanges visible only to a... See more Without taking sides, I have deleted or edited all of the postings in this thread that violate our rules of etiquette.
Instead of using this thread as an opportunity for further denigration, wouldn\'t it be better to brainstorm concrete steps that can be taken--systematically and across the board--to reduce the incidence of negativity in KudoZ ?
That clients can see the exchanges is a good point--perhaps we should make certain exchanges visible only to answerers.
Any other suggestions? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mike Sekine
Jaapan
Local time: 00:57
inglise - jaapani
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| Proz staff talked the talk, when will they walk the walk? | Apr 27, 2002 |
We must all admit: some people NEVER EVER learn. \"HE\" for one, is a prime example.
If all of us had common sense, there is no need for police establishment of any kind in this world. Proz needs to start \"enforcing\" the rules it set out, period.
| | | | Maya Jurt
Šveits
Local time: 16:57
prantsuse - saksa
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| What can we do? | Apr 27, 2002 |
I think that Henry has been very patient with all of us, sometimes too patient.
People with a need to dominate, to administer, to denigrate and to hurt others are found on every forum now and then. When they are banned, the move to another site and start their little game again. For let\'s call a spade a spade, it is a sadistic game. You find them on pp, tcr and the other translators list. They won\'t be allowed to stay long. Because we all know and watch.
<... See more I think that Henry has been very patient with all of us, sometimes too patient.
People with a need to dominate, to administer, to denigrate and to hurt others are found on every forum now and then. When they are banned, the move to another site and start their little game again. For let\'s call a spade a spade, it is a sadistic game. You find them on pp, tcr and the other translators list. They won\'t be allowed to stay long. Because we all know and watch.
Now, should they be banned? Yes, if they cannot abstain.
The hate mail, Ursula: of course you can block their mail if you can\'t stand the heat. I do not, for what they write gives me an insight to their personality. And that is often interesting.
A lively discussion does not hurt our business if it is professional. What does hurt, is people insisting they are right just to get the points.
I would even go a step further and propose that we all abstain from disagreeing. The red flag goes up with a lot of people when they see the word. I put the \"neutral\" in almost all cases. That already indicates that you are not in agreement.
What else? I simply do not know.
Greetings
Maya ▲ Collapse
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Klaus Dorn (X)
Local time: 18:57
saksa - inglise
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| The problem is caused by the "native" speakers | Apr 27, 2002 |
I have seen much of that mudslinging on the KudoZ community and in most cases, it seemed to me, the problem was caused by the \"native\" speakers themselves and this in two ways:
a) Regarding English and German, I feel that the only people who can rightfully claim to be native speakers are the English and the Germans themselves. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians as well as Swiss and Austrians to be classed as native speakers is somewhat a farc... See more I have seen much of that mudslinging on the KudoZ community and in most cases, it seemed to me, the problem was caused by the \"native\" speakers themselves and this in two ways:
a) Regarding English and German, I feel that the only people who can rightfully claim to be native speakers are the English and the Germans themselves. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians as well as Swiss and Austrians to be classed as native speakers is somewhat a farce - native writers, maybe, but certainly not native speakers. But this only is one side of the coin.
At the same time, these so-called native speakers are sitting on a very high horse when it comes to discussions about terms or phrases and claim, because they are native, they know best. Well, I don\'t agree - the fact that most foreigners can spell English better than the natives partly proves it.
Furthermore, if the countrymen mentioned above are classed as native (because some kind of English is their first language), then surely foreigners can acquire an as-good-as-native status, in which case there\'s no difference between them and therefore no reason for the natives to sit on their high horses any more.
Personally, I am accepted as a as-good-as-native speaker of English in both Italy and Turkey, where I teach English (as well as German) to children and business people alike, because I don\'t have an accent in either language. However, will countries like England ever admit that a foreigner can speak and write their language as well as they can, if not better? No, they won\'t, and that\'s why people like myself are being refused the relevant certifications, important for both translation and teaching.
I get slightly apprehensive when I see a job posting on ProZ asking for an English native speaker, therefore excluding myself and then someone from Australia or South Africa gets the job instead. The poster probably isn\'t aware, that the person chosen might be worse at English than the foreigner he turned away by his demand for a \"native\" speaker.
Now to my second point - some of the very same \"native\" speakers are also not trying to protect their language by allowing foreign terms into translation. This seems to happen in German a lot - I can agree with using a foreign term if there isn\'t any feasible equivalent in one\'s own language, but not if there are terms available and just because of globalization or fashion reasons, the English term (Anglicism) is used.
I see it like this - first the language changes, then the culture and if you wait long enough, you get people behaving like the 19-year old German, who yesterday killed 14 teachers, 2 fellow students, a policeman and finally himself. I asked my friends and relatives in three countries of which country this kind of crime reminds them of and they all said unisono \"America\". Enough said, I think. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Maya Jurt
Šveits
Local time: 16:57
prantsuse - saksa
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| Can you remove the comments? | Apr 27, 2002 |
Henry,
The question asked and the answers given still stands, and so do the nasty remarks.Would it be possible to take the comments out?
| | | | | staff position | Apr 27, 2002 |
Quote:
If all of us had common sense, there is no need for police establishment of any kind in this world. Proz needs to start \"enforcing\" the rules it set out, period.
You have a point about some people lacking common sense. That is indeed why we need rules.
We review cases involving troublemakers. When rules are broken, and the offense merits it, we take action. Sometimes peopl... See more Quote:
If all of us had common sense, there is no need for police establishment of any kind in this world. Proz needs to start \"enforcing\" the rules it set out, period.
You have a point about some people lacking common sense. That is indeed why we need rules.
We review cases involving troublemakers. When rules are broken, and the offense merits it, we take action. Sometimes people are expelled.
When rules are not broken but the spirit of the rules is broken, I (for one) write to the parties involved. My notes will progress from opinions (from one professional to another), to requests, to a warning. After the warning, the next step is expulsion. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Good suggestion | Apr 27, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-04-27 15:12, mayagyan wrote:
Henry,
The question asked and the answers given still stands, and so do the nasty remarks.Would it be possible to take the comments out?
Good suggestion. I am going to add a function that allows moderators to remove peer comments that violate the rules.
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| No Prevention? Then, Treatment! | Apr 27, 2002 |
Hi,
perhaps it is a silly suggestion, and I don\'t know whether it is technically possible, but don\'t we have moderators? Why not providing them with the option \"hide\" nasty personal comments?
The best would be, if we all thought first and then acted, but I agree that \"some people never learn\", therefore I\'m suggesting \"treatment instead of prevention\".
Should a Prozy keep on adding those unpleasant comments, ProZ staff could... See more Hi,
perhaps it is a silly suggestion, and I don\'t know whether it is technically possible, but don\'t we have moderators? Why not providing them with the option \"hide\" nasty personal comments?
The best would be, if we all thought first and then acted, but I agree that \"some people never learn\", therefore I\'m suggesting \"treatment instead of prevention\".
Should a Prozy keep on adding those unpleasant comments, ProZ staff could take further steps.
My two €cents...
Giuliana
[addsig] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mike Sekine
Jaapan
Local time: 00:57
inglise - jaapani
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| You're the MAN, Henry (at least for now! :P) | Apr 27, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-04-27 15:46, Henry wrote:
Good suggestion. I am going to add a function that allows moderators to remove peer comments that violate the rules. In the meantime, I am closing that question.
Kudoz to that.
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 10:57
saksa - inglise
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| Berni: leading by example | Apr 27, 2002 |
Kudos to you, Berni: for raising the issue and for admitting your own mistakes.  And I say this as someone who\'s dished out some bad things himself and who\'s also been at the receiving end of abuse.
Mats Wiman and I recently had an off-site discussion on what to do about things like that, and here\'s what we have come up with:
- Accept the fact that there are bad translators. Nature will
... See more Kudos to you, Berni: for raising the issue and for admitting your own mistakes. And I say this as someone who\'s dished out some bad things himself and who\'s also been at the receiving end of abuse.
Mats Wiman and I recently had an off-site discussion on what to do about things like that, and here\'s what we have come up with:
- Accept the fact that there are bad translators. Nature will take care of them.
- Do not attack more than what is explicitly said. Do not jump to conclusions. This goes for all of us.
- Always substantiate the content of your disagreement. Be specific! This helps to create a meaningful discussion.
- Always allow for the possibility that misunderstandings may occur.
And I do like the idea of creating an additional feature to hide comments.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-27 16:17 ] ▲ Collapse
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