| Teemakohased leheküljed: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Mud slinging on Kudoz questions Vestluse postitaja: Berni Armstrong
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Parrot 
Hispaania
Local time: 04:10
hispaania - inglise
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| There is such a thing as constructive criticism | Apr 27, 2002 |
And that\'s what I presumed the \"disagree\" function was for. The problem is (and this is not limited to proZ, which is in many ways a \"heaven\" in the real professional world) (I qualify - there are meaner professional critics out there) that certain remarks are capable of DISABLING the translator\'s competence to react, and probably making him professionally worse instead of better. And I would draw the line there.
Henry, is it premature to project a Code of Ethics such ... See more And that\'s what I presumed the \"disagree\" function was for. The problem is (and this is not limited to proZ, which is in many ways a \"heaven\" in the real professional world) (I qualify - there are meaner professional critics out there) that certain remarks are capable of DISABLING the translator\'s competence to react, and probably making him professionally worse instead of better. And I would draw the line there.
Henry, is it premature to project a Code of Ethics such as those used by other professional organisations? I ask because the more substantial arguments levelled against this website seem to boil down to questions beyond the scope of \"netiquette\" and personal behaviour. However, as a confessed anarchist, I do appreciate the validity of \"unwritten laws\", \"the spirit\" or \"the principle\". The problem would be convincing others that such a principle exists, if we don\'t have claims to a Magna Carta or an authoritative figure like the Archbishop of Canterbury.
By the way, I\'d simply like to say that this site has functioned marvellously in the team project we conducted as an experiment. Nowhere else outside of a convention centre (which would have had to fly in the members) could we have kept up such a tight cohesion between Madrid, Barcelona, Girona, Galicia, Chicago, Colombia and Argentina. Whoever said this was a site for dabblers missed the impeccable performance of 6 MDs who stepped into our \"virtual surgery\". I\'d like to thank them publicly. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Maybe we should be reminded of the negative consequences | Apr 27, 2002 |
As a veteran in Internet forums, I can vouch for the fact that, the \'Net (as great as it is) has this dark side: people who would not say \"boo\" to a goose in real life become regular Charlie Mansons when they are on line. I suppose that anonymity and the fact that you are not facing the person that you are insulting may account for that.
There are forums in which the participants are totally anonymous and some forums even encourage this \"mad as hell\" kind of behavior (t... See more As a veteran in Internet forums, I can vouch for the fact that, the \'Net (as great as it is) has this dark side: people who would not say \"boo\" to a goose in real life become regular Charlie Mansons when they are on line. I suppose that anonymity and the fact that you are not facing the person that you are insulting may account for that.
There are forums in which the participants are totally anonymous and some forums even encourage this \"mad as hell\" kind of behavior (they actually invite you to \"rant\"). However, this is a site for professionals, many of us are here identified with our real names, and our comments are open to anyone, including clients, so, if mere politeness is not enough to prevent us from pressing the Submit button without thinking, we must reflect on the fact that any negative personal comment or insult posted online may end up being actually more damaging to ourselves than to our purported \"victim,\" considering that a mad, bad attitude is not, really, very desirable in any professional.
Not all of us think of taking a deep breath before submitting a comment (this is not always easy, and, though I have always tried not to \"get personal\" with anyone, I apologize here if I ever did). So maybe it would be a good idea to add, on the pages used for posting comments, both in the KudoZ section and the forums, some kind of reminder like \"Please bear in mind that rude or personal comments may reflect badly on you\" or something like that.
This is a preventive measure that can\'t hurt, and if rude comments are posted anyway, they can always be eliminated by ProZ as suggested. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bill Greendyk
Ameerika Ühendriigid
Local time: 22:10
Liige (2002)
hispaania - inglise
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| All anarchy aside, Cecilia, bring on the Archbishop :-)))) | Apr 27, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-04-27 15:05, mayagyan wrote:
I think that Henry has been very patient with all of us, sometimes too patient.
That\'s an understatement. In reference to Cecilia\'s comments, I\'d go as far as to ordain Henry the Archbishop/Pope of ProZ.  I sometimes think his hair must be truly a touch more grey than what his photo shows.  ... See more Quote:
On 2002-04-27 15:05, mayagyan wrote:
I think that Henry has been very patient with all of us, sometimes too patient.
That\'s an understatement. In reference to Cecilia\'s comments, I\'d go as far as to ordain Henry the Archbishop/Pope of ProZ. I sometimes think his hair must be truly a touch more grey than what his photo shows.  On the other hand, perhaps he\'s the one laughing at some of the insipid invective that finds its way into the forums.
Quote:
On 2002-04-27 15:05, mayagyan wrote:
I would even go a step further and propose that we all abstain from disagreeing. The red flag goes up with a lot of people when they see the word. I put the \"neutral\" in almost all cases. That already indicates that you are not in agreement.
I disagree with you here, Maya, and only in black-and-white, no red or orange intended. I\'m new to this site, so I claim no expertise or know-how above anyone else, nor do I claim any \"moral higher ground,\" to quote Berni above. Still, I feel that it\'s all right to disagree. After all, why would we have the option if it weren\'t to be used. If I post a completely wrong answer, I would hope that someone would have the decency to correct me! (It\'s been done plenty of times, thank you.) Imagine if our university professors were \"neutral\" about our incorrect answers on an exam. The policeman at the traffic light (to use an exaggerated illustration) may not be so \"neutral\" when I speed by him without heeding the light. We should learn that a \"disagree\" is more like saying, \"I beg your pardon, but I think you may have misjudged, misunderstood, or mis-guessed your answer there, and may I offer you some helpful suggestions to correct you.\" Sounds idealistic, but that\'s the way I interpret the \"disagree.\" A \"neutral\" is placed by some, but then they go on to explain an error they have found in the answer. That\'s fine. Perhaps, as Maya points out, the \"red flag\" is raised because of the very color of the \"disagree:\" flaming red. However, even fire, when used properly, is an indispensable element. What you refer to, Maya, I believe, is the ABUSE of the \'disagree\' option. Some use it only to have a forum to heap cyber-abuse on their colleagues. Immature at best, arsonists by another name.
What is a translator? Isn\'t he/she no more, and no less, than an \'artist\' with words? How do we then arrive at the bizarre pastime of throwing the \"paint\" at one another, when we really could be using the tools of our trade (words, applied and inserted with the \"brush\" of intelligence) to say and accomplish the most marvellous of things?
In the end, I\'m sure there will always exist a few individuals on a site of this size who will abuse their freedom of speech. I find that the best way to answer those type of \'disagrees\' is with either a \"thanks!!\" (what can you throw back at someone who thanks you???), or at worst, no response at all. I learned this the hard way, by answering back in kind to some nasty comments. I felt horrid inside, as if I had fought with my wife.  It didn\'t take me more than one or two tries at this to know that I was no match in a verbal hate-fest. As Henry says, the \"spirit\" of the rules is what is being violated, and it\'s up to us to ensure that that \"spirit\" is maintained.
I still would vote to ordain Henry as ProZ Pope!
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-27 18:56 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tatiana Neroni (X)
inglise - vene
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| I agree with Henry and the previous colleague completely | Apr 27, 2002 |
First, I would also like moderators to have an opportunity to hide hateful comments.
While, of course, all members here are mature adults potentially able to \"take the heat\" of any nasty comment, it kills the fun of being on ProZ immensely.
This is a real \"professional heaven\", there is (as far as I know) no other site like this where professional translators can help each other in explaining different terms and shades of meaning, and it shouldn\'t b... See more First, I would also like moderators to have an opportunity to hide hateful comments.
While, of course, all members here are mature adults potentially able to \"take the heat\" of any nasty comment, it kills the fun of being on ProZ immensely.
This is a real \"professional heaven\", there is (as far as I know) no other site like this where professional translators can help each other in explaining different terms and shades of meaning, and it shouldn\'t be littered with somebody venting his/her frustrations onto all the public for any reason at all.
Code of Ethics would be a good idea with a \"3-strike\" option (just an example). I would only like that the right to \"judge and convict\" (expel from ProZ) not be given to one person, no matter how good. It should be a collective judgement of peers.
I believe that the majority of people would judge fairly as to what is a \"right-out\" nasty comment and what is a defensive irony, although sometimes there are no border lines between the two to distinguish one from the other...
I also have an experience of being repeatedly attacked by a particular person (I used a blocked sender list, but why should there even be an occasion for it?), same was experienced by some of my colleagues (especially English monolingual). Some of my colleagues who were attacked this way were so discouraged they wanted to call it quits with ProZ, and they are all (in my humble opinion) good translators and an asset to this site.
This site is a lot about professional generosity, disinterested sharing of your experience with your peers. Being exposed to more people in your profession, including employers, is another legitimate purpose.
I totally agree that other motivations, like venting your frustration, satisfying you need for aggression or humiliation of other people should be completely out of bounds here, and just pleading to the person does not always work if it\'s his/her second nature or pleasure to do so. It\'s like in the regular justice system - it has the function of prevention and rehabilitation, but it also has the function of deterrence and retribution. If we can\'t prevent, let\'s deter. If we can\'t deter, let\'s punish, punish effectively, by expulsion, but let\'s keep the site clean...
Dear Henry, if voting is needed on the Code of Ethics, or the feature to hide \"hate comments\" - you have my vote. Thanks for bringing us all together! ▲ Collapse
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| The weird side of the Internet | Apr 27, 2002 |
The KudoZ site seems to show just the tip of the iceberg:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/190403
Question:
Wer nichts als Fussball in Kopf hat
Wer nichts als Fussball in Kopf hat, bringt es nicht weit im Leben
Answerer: Ursula Peter-Czichi
Apr 26
Answer: People who can\'t think about anything but soccer... See more The KudoZ site seems to show just the tip of the iceberg:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/190403
Question:
Wer nichts als Fussball in Kopf hat
Wer nichts als Fussball in Kopf hat, bringt es nicht weit im Leben
Answerer: Ursula Peter-Czichi
Apr 26
Answer: People who can\'t think about anything but soccer
Explanation:
won\'t go very far (in life).
What Mom would say...
Asker feedback
Grade: 4
There are no unpleasant comments on that exchange, yet I got an email the same evening:
“If your head is nothing but a soccer ball ...”
I do not know the message writer,
Have never seen or heard his name before,
His language pairs are different,
His specialties are very different,
Yet…..
I just put the example here to show how a nasty exchange COULD start. (It will not in this case).
[About my head: It is neither round nor checkered]
Have a nice Sunday!
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-27 18:17 ] ▲ Collapse
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Quote:
On 2002-04-27 17:55, Tatiana Neroni wrote:
I totally agree that other motivations, like venting your frustration, satisfying you need for aggression or humiliation of other people should be completely out of bounds here, and just pleading to the person does not always work if it\'s his/her second nature or pleasure to do so. It\'s like in the regular justice system - it has the function of prevention and rehabilitation, but
... See more Quote:
On 2002-04-27 17:55, Tatiana Neroni wrote:
I totally agree that other motivations, like venting your frustration, satisfying you need for aggression or humiliation of other people should be completely out of bounds here, and just pleading to the person does not always work if it\'s his/her second nature or pleasure to do so. It\'s like in the regular justice system - it has the function of prevention and rehabilitation, but it also has the function of deterrence and retribution. If we can\'t prevent, let\'s deter. If we can\'t deter, let\'s punish, punish effectively, by expulsion, but let\'s keep the site clean...
When I suggested a special warning about how a negative comment may reflect badly on a poster, I was referring to regular people who are mindful to protect their reputation but who may be tempted to give a too sharp answer in a moment of obfuscation, but who are discerning enough to realize that this would be something they would regret later. People with a second agenda who would not be deterred by any such warning would have to be dealt with otherwise, that is, having their postings deleted and, if recalcitrant in their bad behavior, expelled from the site.
I think that this site is an invaluable medium to exchange ideas and to obtain help, and the best for all of us is to preserve it from becoming a cyberspace food fight. Such a thing would be a shame... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Parrot
Hispaania
Local time: 04:10
hispaania - inglise
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| A principle of Professional Generosity, I like that... | Apr 27, 2002 |
And I\'ll make another confession. I started answering because I received a lot of \"professional generosity\" myself.
When I raised the issue of a Code of Ethics, I was a little hesitant. ProZ is Henry\'s baby, and although we\'re all in it and involved, we\'re doing it in his \"virtual house\", so to speak. Then, there was the respect for the principle of a \"gentleman\'s (and lady\'s) agreement\" that sustains the unwritten laws of this world, which in turn have been more... See more And I\'ll make another confession. I started answering because I received a lot of \"professional generosity\" myself.
When I raised the issue of a Code of Ethics, I was a little hesitant. ProZ is Henry\'s baby, and although we\'re all in it and involved, we\'re doing it in his \"virtual house\", so to speak. Then, there was the respect for the principle of a \"gentleman\'s (and lady\'s) agreement\" that sustains the unwritten laws of this world, which in turn have been more longer-lasting than the written ones, in which the letter and not the spirit prevail at times. (Although to spend 700 years proving it exists like the Magna Carta is a bit too much to expect). Maybe a simple, very basic admonition on the front page would suffice? \"Enter not with hate in your heart, this is a generous place\".
On the other hand, practically all professional translators\' and interpreters\' organisations have penned down their code of ethics and have acquired their respectability on the basis of respecting it. And from still another angle - aren\'t these just our growing pains? (Are we \"teething\"?) 
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-27 20:29 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 22:10
saksa - inglise
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| And here's an example from these pages: | Apr 27, 2002 |
Klaus wrote:
Quote:
) Regarding English and German, I feel that the only people who can rightfully claim to be native speakers are the English and the Germans themselves. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians as well as Swiss and Austrians to be classed as native speakers is somewhat a farce - native writers, maybe, but certainly not native speakers. But this only is one side of the coin.
... See more
Klaus wrote:
Quote:
) Regarding English and German, I feel that the only people who can rightfully claim to be native speakers are the English and the Germans themselves. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians as well as Swiss and Austrians to be classed as native speakers is somewhat a farce - native writers, maybe, but certainly not native speakers. But this only is one side of the coin.
For a German native speaker, even if he is considered to be almost as good as an English native speaker, to make such (discriminatory and racist) statements is a classic example of a post that can trigger a whole series of attacks and should, therefore, be avoided at all cost.
On a personal note, Klaus, if you read up on English just a little bit, you\'d find out that American English, for example, is a lot closer to Shakespeare\'s English (especially in terms of pronunciation) in many ways than modern British English.
And what of the many German \"native speakers\" who cannot even pronounce, among several other sounds, \"pf\" as in \"Pferd\" (it always comes out as \"ferd\")???
Please, Klaus, you have read other colleagues\' comments and what they think of such remarks. Was that really necessary??? 
Besides, to answer your question, outsourcers have every right to ask for native speakers only, and as Henry said in another thread not too long ago, anyone who repeatedly bids on a job without meeting the requirements may be removed and banned from bidding. So, watch out!
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-27 22:12 ] ▲ Collapse
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Maya Jurt
Šveits
Local time: 04:10
prantsuse - saksa
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| My two cents! | Apr 27, 2002 |
This is really getting interesting.
Silvina, you are so right. Anonymus is raving on the net. But on proZ, we mostly know the name of these ranters.
Klaus: I am absolutely amazed: Dürrenmatt, Frisch, Hürlimann, Bichsel etc. not natives? Can you do better?
And who judges your accent in Turkey and Italy? The Queen of England or George Bush?
Please, that \"native\" stuff is really something even the fervent advocates of na... See more This is really getting interesting.
Silvina, you are so right. Anonymus is raving on the net. But on proZ, we mostly know the name of these ranters.
Klaus: I am absolutely amazed: Dürrenmatt, Frisch, Hürlimann, Bichsel etc. not natives? Can you do better?
And who judges your accent in Turkey and Italy? The Queen of England or George Bush?
Please, that \"native\" stuff is really something even the fervent advocates of nativemess have buried, except maybe the one who started this discussion (and I do not mean Berni).
William, you got it. It is the red flag, and we should be able to disagree but I know some people cannot take it. That is why I still would recommend to put the \"neutral flag\" on. Maybe we could find a new name for \"disagree\" . How about \"I beg you pardon?\"
Ursula and Henry: Apart from Klaus\' comment (remember, he told us he would go far to get Kudoz, almost at any price) I again would really like to know who that Jonathan Pickard is. He has been around since a joined, or earlier, and someone gets a lot of KudoZ thanks to his questions.
Does it matter? Not really.
But politeness does. And I think if moderators could eliminate those comments without deleting the questions, that would help. But they can\'t be around all the time.
I wish you all a pleasant weekend.
Maya
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| | | | Klaus Dorn (X)
Local time: 06:10
saksa - inglise
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| Have I not expressed myself correctly? | Apr 27, 2002 |
If anyone in this community cannot express the way he feels (which is exactly the word I used) without being accused of discrimination and racism, then I would like to take my comment back. I deliberately did not use the term \"is a farce\", as this, in my opinion would have amounted to the aforementioned offences. I have not attacked anyone, I merely expressed dissatisfaction about the classification of \"native\".
As for Mr. Patels comment on how many Germans cannot say th... See more If anyone in this community cannot express the way he feels (which is exactly the word I used) without being accused of discrimination and racism, then I would like to take my comment back. I deliberately did not use the term \"is a farce\", as this, in my opinion would have amounted to the aforementioned offences. I have not attacked anyone, I merely expressed dissatisfaction about the classification of \"native\".
As for Mr. Patels comment on how many Germans cannot say the word \"Pferd\" correctly, it just proved my point. Native speakers aren\'t always best (that\'s my personal opinion).
I have never bid for a job where a native English speaker was asked for, so I\'m unaware as to what I should \"watch out\" for. ▲ Collapse
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People, this will probably be the first time that I will publicly agree with WGP (perhaps a fleeting phenomenon but still ground-breaking ):
Klaus Dorn:
\"Regarding English and German, I feel that the only people who can rightfully claim to be native speakers are the English and the Germans themselves. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians as well as Swiss and Austrians to be classed as nati... See more People, this will probably be the first time that I will publicly agree with WGP (perhaps a fleeting phenomenon but still ground-breaking ):
Klaus Dorn:
\"Regarding English and German, I feel that the only people who can rightfully claim to be native speakers are the English and the Germans themselves. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians as well as Swiss and Austrians to be classed as native speakers is somewhat a farce - native writers, maybe, but certainly not native speakers. But this only is one side of the coin.\"
My, my, what utter bollocks (to use a British word you would understand, dear Klaus). Hey, Klaus, buddy, I would uphold your right to answer En-En monolingual questions any time and I would never denigrate your valuable contributions in ANY language question where you think you could give an answer, in spite of allegations of your supposed non-native-speaker status and, hence, inability to give any valuable contributions at all...
BUT
your statement above needs more thought and reconsideration before being published in a forum like this. What do you think the legions of your colleagues would think when they read it? I, for one, bristled and was ready to lash out until I reminded myself of the very subject of this thread.
I respect your opinion buddy, and we all know the (perhaps) slight British bias (hang on, there\'s a better word)...tangent...in your Kudoz/forum posts, but a breath-takingly sweeping remark like that is bordering on ill-conceived prejudice.
And we all know the person(s) you, Ursula and others are addressing your messages to, and I think your grievances are legitimate, but know that the opinion you oppose is of the minority and will never prevail.
Henry once said that it is \"healthy\" and this site is \"robust\" enough to withstand dissenters, so just let it be. The Fran Hallorans of the industry will only leave in disgust and the Dyran Altenburgs will seek help in some other way, the remaining mortals like you and me will keep on posting our \"nonsensical\" Kudoz and answering when we can, oblivious of smart-ass comments.
But anyway, I just had my sushi dinner, sated, in a non-confrontational mood...I\'d just like to say that the very nature of this site allows for access of just about any member to just about any Kudoz. The question now lies in the quality of answers given. I, for one, now know the quality of answers I could expect from specific individuals and I give the better answerers more weight and consideration.
Now, I will never disapprove of supposed non-natives or non-specialists answering since they too, albeit infrequently, could contribute something constructive. These answers may perhaps not be as beneficial as those from specialists/native speakers but I would still be thankful for the time they took to help out.
I go by the rule: I help out because much help is given me.
May I share a guiding principle that prevents me from branding colleagues as \"incompetent, unprofessional, illegitimate\" and all the very colorful words used in this site by our very able colleagues: it is the market that will dictate the rules. Why get upset if the job goes to the lowest bidder, or the Kudoz poster asks a question beyond his/her comprehension and ability, or the Kudoz points are given to the wrong answer, or a guy from Vanuatu deigns to answer a question in the Fr>De pair...why get upset at all? Good sense almost always reigns supreme and the illegitimate is found out. The market will rule out further incursions by \"interlopers\" or the dilettante will soon learn thus adding to the constellation of translators.
I say, let all these interlopers color our universe. When it comes down to the draw, the skilled and skillful will always get the dough.
Indeed, Henry is ALREADY the Bishop of Canterbury and the moderators the parochial supervisors in their respective diocese. The ability to hide impolitic remarks would be one of the valuable tools that would make this site one of good rapport and synergy.
Just back from Cozumel diving,
a tropical hola to everybody with no exceptions!
Marcus ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 22:10
saksa - inglise
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Quote:
On 2002-04-27 22:12, mayagyan wrote:
And who judges your accent in Turkey and Italy? The Queen of England or George Bush?
My guess: neither!
Quote:
William, you got it. It is the red flag, and we should be able to disagree but I know some people cannot take it. That is why I still would recommend to put the \"n
... See more Quote:
On 2002-04-27 22:12, mayagyan wrote:
And who judges your accent in Turkey and Italy? The Queen of England or George Bush?
My guess: neither!
Quote:
William, you got it. It is the red flag, and we should be able to disagree but I know some people cannot take it. That is why I still would recommend to put the \"neutral flag\" on. Maybe we could find a new name for \"disagree\" . How about \"I beg you pardon?\"
Colours can wreak \"mental havoc\", let\'s not kid ourselves. While it may be silly, but, perhaps, a change in colours would help.
Quote:
... I again would really like to know who that Jonathan Pickard is. He has been around since a joined, or earlier, and someone gets a lot of KudoZ thanks to his questions.
Interesting tidbit of information 
Quote:
Does it matter? Not really.
But politeness does. And I think if moderators could eliminate those comments without deleting the questions, that would help. But they can\'t be around all the time.
ProZ has way over 30,000 members now, so the resources are there. Perhaps Henry could increase the number of moderators to 3, maybe even 4, in the major language pairs (and assign moderators for monolingual subcommunities as well). ▲ Collapse
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Quote:
On 2002-04-27 15:11, kaypeedee wrote:
I have seen much of that mudslinging on the KudoZ community and in most cases, it seemed to me, the problem was caused by the \"native\" speakers themselves and this in two ways:
a) Regarding English and German, I feel that the only people who can rightfully claim to be native speakers are the English and the Germans themselves. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders
... See more Quote:
On 2002-04-27 15:11, kaypeedee wrote:
I have seen much of that mudslinging on the KudoZ community and in most cases, it seemed to me, the problem was caused by the \"native\" speakers themselves and this in two ways:
a) Regarding English and German, I feel that the only people who can rightfully claim to be native speakers are the English and the Germans themselves. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians as well as Swiss and Austrians to be classed as native speakers is somewhat a farce - native writers, maybe, but certainly not native speakers.
I agree with you, Klaus. It is the divisiveness of this \"native\" business and its spill-over in the job postings that is causing the problem.
About German \"native speakers\":
Countless jokes about Bavarians and those Germans who live on the border to the Netherlands exist, all of them very funny.
Books have been filled with anecdotes about Germans from different regions who just simply can\'t understand each other (and do not try very hard).
I know labels like \"native speaker\" don\'t mean a thing. (I am not talking about a mangled language with a distracting number of mistakes). My question is:
Why are people so spiteful about minor differences of no consequence?
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| | | | Bill Greendyk
Ameerika Ühendriigid
Local time: 22:10
Liige (2002)
hispaania - inglise
+ ...
| Miracles DO happen, Marcus!! Welcome back! :-)) | Apr 27, 2002 |
Quote:
On 2002-04-27 22:17, marcushm wrote:
People, this will probably be the first time that I will publicly agree with WGP (perhaps a fleeting phenomenon but still ground-breaking ):
Marcus! Welcome back from Cozumel! It may be a \"fleeting yet ground-breaking phenomenon,\" but I see it as a step in the right direction to precisely w... See more Quote:
On 2002-04-27 22:17, marcushm wrote:
People, this will probably be the first time that I will publicly agree with WGP (perhaps a fleeting phenomenon but still ground-breaking ):
Marcus! Welcome back from Cozumel! It may be a \"fleeting yet ground-breaking phenomenon,\" but I see it as a step in the right direction to precisely what we´re attempting to achieve in this thread. Terrific!
[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-27 22:29 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 22:10
saksa - inglise
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Quote:
On 2002-04-27 22:26, billgreen wrote:
Quote:
On 2002-04-27 22:17, marcushm wrote:
People, this will probably be the first time that I will publicly agree with WGP (perhaps a fleeting phenomenon but still ground-breaking ):
Marcus! Welcome back from Cozumel! It may
... See more Quote:
On 2002-04-27 22:26, billgreen wrote:
Quote:
On 2002-04-27 22:17, marcushm wrote:
People, this will probably be the first time that I will publicly agree with WGP (perhaps a fleeting phenomenon but still ground-breaking ):
Marcus! Welcome back from Cozumel! It may be a \"fleeting yet ground-breaking phenomenon,\" but I see it as a step in the right direction to precisely what we´re attempting to achieve in this thread. Terrific!
I, too, find it \"ground-breaking\" (in the nicest sense of the word). And, yes, it is a step forward, in the right direction.
After all, if Marcus and I (of all people ) finally manage to get along and agree on something, surely the rest of you will be able to do the same. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Teemakohased leheküljed: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Mud slinging on Kudoz questions | CafeTran Espresso | You've never met a CAT tool this clever!
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