Glossary entry

Portuguese term or phrase:

trapacear pela sua ignorância

English translation:

cheat (simply) because of/due to his ignorance

Added to glossary by Ana Vozone
Feb 28, 2023 15:31
1 yr ago
35 viewers *
Portuguese term

trapacear pela sua ignorância

Portuguese to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
O caixa poderia até trapacear pela sua ignorância (pessoa que desconhece os valores das fichas do cassino).
Change log

Feb 28, 2023 18:44: Claudia Marques changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Mar 7, 2023 13:46: Ana Vozone Created KOG entry

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Mario Freitas, Ana Vozone, Claudia Marques

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Discussion

Lara Barnett Mar 2, 2023:
@ Ana I have not at any point tried to tell you what Trapacear means, and nor did I at any point indicate a disagree with your answer. I have maintained from the start that I'm talking about ENGLISH USAGE and not meaning, (which suggests that an appropriate synonym might sound more idiomatic). This is merely to help the Asker find the correct word or phrase for her context for usage in English. I have also not "refused" to agree on softness or hardness of words, so you have clearly misunderstood my point, which refers to the NUANCE in the meaning of the words and how this can alter slightly through usage, and not their strength!
PS. With reference to which term is hard/soft (insulting/not insulting), I would personally be equally insulted if I was confronted with either of these words, given the context, as it is the target lang. USAGE and CONTEXT that drives the meaning here, not only the dictionary definition.
Ana Vozone Mar 2, 2023:
@Lara As translators we need to convey the meaning and intention of the original term. You insist in softening the actual meaning of "trapacear" which is (almost) colloquial. You would not walk up to someone and tell them "Está a trapacear-me" without this sounding insulting. If you tell me I am "misleading" you, that is not insulting. Also, you said: "The point is that "cheat" refers to breaking the rules of a game (i.e. between players - see Oliver's reference post below), while the deception described in the context is not part of the game, as the attendant is not a player. "Cheat" would certainly apply between "players" in a casino if they broke the rules intentionally to try to win, but the attendant is not playing, he/she is carrying out a professional or official function. I.e., you reduced the scope of the meaning of cheat and refuse to accept that "trapacear" is stronger than "misleading". In any case, I do not want to go on with this dialogue, nor am I trying to teach anything about English to a native speaker. I am merely defending my suggestion and the accepted meaning of "trapacear". And please do not teach me what "trapacear" means. I know perfectly well.
Ana Vozone Mar 1, 2023:
@Lara cheat (Merriam-Webster)

transitive verb
1: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
cheated the elderly couple out of their property
2: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
a young man who cheated young women into marrying him when he was already married
3: to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting
cheat death

intransitive verb
1
a: to practice fraud or trickery
denied the accusation that he cheated
b: to violate rules dishonestly
cheat at cards
cheating on a test
2: to be sexually unfaithful —usually used with on
was cheating on his wife
3: to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that area
the shortstop was cheating toward second base

Collins Dictionary
1. VERB B2
When someone cheats, they do not obey a set of rules which they should be obeying, for example in a game or exam.
Students may be tempted to cheat in order to get into top schools.

VERB
If someone cheats you out of something, they get it from you by behaving dishonestly.
The company engaged in a deliberate effort to cheat them out of their pensions. [V n + out of/of]
Many brokers were charged with cheating customers in commodity trade
Mario Freitas Mar 1, 2023:
I guess the number of agrees means something.
Ana Vozone Mar 1, 2023:
@Lara Trapacear is “stronger” / “harder” than Enganar/Induzir em erro.
Lara Barnett Mar 1, 2023:
Hard/soft I do not find the Hard vs Soft issue to be relevant here, the issue is the USAGE of the verbs, and what they mean in English. The point is that "cheat" refers to breaking the rules of a game (i.e. between players - see Oliver's reference post below), while the deception described in the context is not part of the game, as the attendant is not a player. "Cheat" would certainly apply between "players" in a casino if they broke the rules intentionally to try to win, but the attendant is not playing, he/she is carrying out a professional or official function.
This is why I find "mislead" much more relevant to the context, which may be set in a casino all the same, but the relationship between this person and the attendant is not Player vs Player. That is to say attendants in casinos do not "cheat", but could deceive or mislead.
Ana Vozone Mar 1, 2023:
@Nick Trapacear is a really strong term in Portuguese, trapaça is also very "powerful", so "misleading" is too soft in my opinion.
Nick Taylor Mar 1, 2023:
@anybody Mislead - (maybe a euphemism but...)
to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit.
Maybe I should reinforce my answer by adding "DELIBERATELY" MISLEAD although I dont think it is necessary
Lara Barnett Mar 1, 2023:
@ Ana I did not suggest that you were either correct or incorrect in your answer. In my comment i was merely trying to establish if you possibly had any further knowledge than I could find on the question's context, given your description, as this was before the asker added her extra content for us.
Personally, as a contextually-focussed translator, I would neither agree nor disagree with any answer until I have seen a way that the word or translation could be incorporated (or idiomatically structured) into the required context. It might be more useful to the Asker (Cica) if you could show her how you would do this (using "cheat"), because a dictionary translation is not always the correct synonym to use in English, given our style and customs in language usage.
Lara Barnett Mar 1, 2023:
@Cica "mislead" does not necessarily always imply any form of trickery or purposeful deception, while "cheat" will always imply such deception.
Mario Freitas Feb 28, 2023:
@ All We must consider the Portuguese author chose the verb "trapacear", which implies willful conduct (negative, of course). I understand why Phil and Lara insisted "cheating" would not be the best choice, and perhaps misleading would be more accurate in this situation. However, it was the aithors error if he intended to say miselad instead of cheat, because the word he used in PT is "to cheat".
Ana Vozone Feb 28, 2023:
@Cica and Phil Like Phil says, I (wrongly) assumed "sua" referred to the cashier's ignorance. In any case, now that the context is totally clear, I (still) stand by my suggestion. Trapaça and trapacear are really clear, strong terms in Portuguese to describe cheating. I am glad the discussion brought clarity ;)
philgoddard Feb 28, 2023:
Well, in that case you've answered your own question. I (and others, I suspect) assumed "sua" referred to the cashier's ignorance, but it's the customer's.
CicaBarth (asker) Feb 28, 2023:
More context: a girl who is buying casino chips thinks the attendant could easily mislead (?) her as she knows nothing about casinos and gambling. She doesn´t even know the values of each color of chip.
Mario Freitas Feb 28, 2023:
@ Lara I think maybe you didn't catch the exact meaning of "trapacear" in Portuguese. It is cheating, it is conscious and intentional. We're all curious about what your suggestion would be, though.
Ana Vozone Feb 28, 2023:
@Lara It is apparently not confusing to our colleagues who look at my answer and understand my reasoning. I don't understand why don't you propose your own if you feel mine is incorrect. Cheers!
Lara Barnett Feb 28, 2023:
@ Ana Your answer is obscured by your reference to "even unwittingly", which contradicts the meaning of "cheat". Your answer is therefore very confusing.
Lara Barnett Feb 28, 2023:
@ Cica Could you provide some context to this phrase please?

Proposed translations

+8
11 mins
Selected

cheat (simply) because of/due to his ignorance

Meaning that even unwittingly, the cashier could do something illegal just because he does not know the value of the casino chips/tokens.
Peer comment(s):

neutral Lara Barnett : My comments relate to the word that corresponds to the context, i.e. a financial transaction. I did not dispute your dictionary definition of trapacear.. English translators normally base translations on CONTEXTUAL USAGE/
33 mins
Yes, but "trapacear" is the term shown https://dicionario.priberam.org/trapacear // I did not use unwittingly in my suggestion, just used to explain that the person could trapacear (cheat) simply because he does not know the real value.//I rest my case ;)
agree Mario Freitas : Trapacear is necessarily conscious and intentional.
1 hr
Obrigada, Mário, foi o que eu pensei... :)
agree Luis SILVA
1 hr
Obrigada, Luís!
agree Paulinho Fonseca
1 hr
Obrigada, Paulinho!
agree philgoddard : I'm changing this to an agree now that we have the full context. It's "her' ignorance.
2 hrs
Obrigada, Paul!
agree Claudia Marques
3 hrs
Obrigada, Cláudia!
agree Clauwolf
5 hrs
Obrigada, Cláudio!
agree Carlos Abelheira
6 hrs
Obrigada, Carlos!
agree Bett : yes
17 hrs
Thank you, Bett!
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Obrigada, Ana e todos que contribuíram "
+1
3 hrs

mislead due to ignorance (on the part of)

mislead due to ignorance (on the part of)
Peer comment(s):

agree Lara Barnett : I would go with "deliberately" mislead to be honest, as it can create quite an open ended nuance.
16 hrs
Ok thanks Lara
Something went wrong...
2 days 19 hrs

Dupe (Swindle)

Personally I would choose one of these two verbs, which are commonly used in descriptions of financial transactions that are either fraudulent or involve trickery in some way, to either "dupe" or "swindle".
My decision is based on usage in the context of a financial transaction, which appears to be the background and context, given the asker's discussion entry.

"DUPE
.....
--verb (used with object),
to make a dupe of; deceive; delude; trick."
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/dupe

Examples describe financial transactions which are slightly different to this casino transaction, but carry the same meaning.

Alternately, Swindle is a possibility, but I would use DUPE as first choice.


"SWINDLE...
4. an act of swindling or a fraudulent transaction or scheme.
5. anything deceptive; a fraud: 'This advertisement is a real swindle.' "
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/swindle


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 19 hrs (2023-03-03 10:56:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"Ice Cream Salesman Turned Art Dealer Swindled Elite Clients Out of Millions, Feds sayy."
https://news.culturecrime.org/entry/Boucher2017Ice-Cre.html

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 22 hrs (2023-03-03 14:25:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

"I had opened a case with Askgamblers, but since they are unwilling to stay next to the people who were DUPED BY THE CASINO, I decided to write here. I hope you'll help me."
https://www.affiliateguarddog.com/community/threads/spinbet-...
Example sentence:

"The cashier of a private restaurant duped his customer of Rs 25,000 through a bank account."

"The scam involves fraudsters using confusion techniques to dupe staff into giving them extra cash out of the till."

Something went wrong...

Reference comments

3 hrs
Reference:

Cheating in casinos

This article describes specific cheating methods used by players and by casinos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_in_casinos
Peer comments on this reference comment:

neutral Lara Barnett : Exactly, cheat refers to deception during a game, i.e. cheat the rules, but the problem is that the "trapacear" described in the context does not match the same relationship.
1 day 2 hrs
Something went wrong...
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